SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken has a big job. With conflicts and tension around the globe, he runs point on U.S. foreign policy worldwide. Central to that job, he says, is recognizing the humanity in the person across the table, friend or foe.
ANTONY BLINKEN: If we end or minimize the terrible dehumanization that we see in so many places around the world, then I'm more than convinced - I know - that the best of humanity is not only possible, it's what will happen.
DETROW: In a wide-ranging conversation with my co-host, Mary Louise Kelly, at the Aspen Security Forum, Secretary Blinken weighed in on a wide range of the most pressing diplomatic questions, starting with the war between Israel and Hamas.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, BYLINE: Our ambassador at the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, said this week, and I quote, that "negotiations on a cease-fire are trending in the right direction." Is she right, and on what is that based?
BLINKEN: What Linda said is right. I believe we're inside the 10-yard line and driving toward the goal line and getting an agreement that would produce a cease-fire, get the hostages home and put us on a better track to trying to build lasting peace and stability.
KELLY: And, again, on what is that based - other than hope?
BLINKEN: It's based on two things. Yes, because hope is good, but it's insufficient. No, it's based on reality. And the reality is this - a month ago, President Biden put out a detailed proposal for getting to a cease-fire, the release of hostages and the ability to move forward. And what happened after that was quite extraordinary. The entire world came together in support of that proposal. And the result was, after a lot of pushing and diplomacy in the weeks after that, we have an agreement to the framework the President put out by both Israel and Hamas. The question now is finishing the negotiation of some critical details that are important.
KELLY: Well, and that Hamas hasn't signed on. Have they...
BLINKEN: Oh, no. They signed onto the framework.
KELLY: Right, but if they...
BLINKEN: And that's what's so important. But there remain some issues that need to be resolved, that need to be negotiated. We're in the midst of doing exactly that. And by the way, when I say we're inside the 10-yard line, we are. Now, we also know that, with anything, the last 10 yards are often the hardest.
KELLY: One more on the Middle East - is the two-state solution dead?
BLINKEN: Not only is it not dead, it can't be. And...
KELLY: It's very hard to find a path to optimism, given that Israelis are now resisting it - government, ordinary people. Gaza is destroyed. Settlers are taking more land in the West Bank. Where does that leave room for hope?
BLINKEN: You know, John McCain used to say that it's always darkest before it goes completely black.
(LAUGHTER)
BLINKEN: So if you...
KELLY: We miss him every day.
BLINKEN: ...Keep that in mind, it's not bad guidance for the work that we're all trying to do. But, look, there are some fundamental realities that we can't escape. The fundamental realities are these. Between Gaza and the West Bank, there are somewhere over 5 million Palestinians. There are about 7 million Israeli Jews. Neither is going anywhere. Palestinians are not going anywhere. The Jews are not going anywhere. There has to be an accommodation, but an accommodation that does two things - that brings lasting peace and lasting security to Israelis who so desperately want it and need it and fulfills the right to self-determination of the Palestinians.
Now, with any right comes responsibility - responsibility to build a state that would not be a threat to Israel, that won't be a Hamas-stan (ph), that won't be like Lebanon, with Hezbollah actually dominating the country. So there are important things that would need to happen in order for a state to be realized, but I believe strongly that, yes, that has to be the future. And by the way, the two strongest opponents of a two-state solution - who are they? Iran and Hamas. So the strongest possible rebuke to both Iran and Hamas would be the realization of two states.
And there's something else - and I'm sorry for going on, but I think it's important. There is a different future, and we saw - we've seen its outlines in an almost embryonic form, but it's there - a different future for Israel that realizes maybe its No. 1 objective since the founding of the state, and that is its acceptance in the region - having normal relations with all of its neighbors.
KELLY: Yeah.
BLINKEN: We see that through the work that we're doing on normalization. We saw that when Iran attacked Israel and, for the first time - a direct attack from Iran on Israel - the United States, but not just the United States - European countries and countries in the region -came to Israel's defense. So we can see a future where Israel is integrated in the region, it's more secure, the Palestinians realize their aspirations for a state and the enemies of that future - Iran and its various proxies - are isolated.
KELLY: Thank you for making the case for hope. Ukraine - I'll start with the cause for hope. NATO has recently expanded military support. A lot of the ammunition shortages have been addressed. Dozens of F-16 fighter jets are on their way to Ukraine. They're expected to be operational this summer. I want to ask about what it would take for the U.S. to change its policy on how far Ukraine can shoot weapons into Russia. And I'm drawing - for that question, I reached out to colleagues in our Kyiv bureau, including Ukrainian colleagues. I was curious what they would want to ask you. They want to know - does Washington want Ukraine to win or not?
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BLINKEN: I think if you look at the last 2 1/2 years, it's hard to conclude that anyone has done more for Ukraine to assure its success than the United States of America. And that will continue for as long as we have anything to say about it. Now, what...
KELLY: That is true, but they would point out they're being asked to fight with one hand tied behind their back.
BLINKEN: Every step along the way, we've tried to make sure that we're adapting and adjusting to the realities on the ground - to what's actually happening - to make sure that Ukrainians have what they need when they need it. But it's not enough to give them a weapons system. They have to be able to use it. They have to be able to maintain it. It has to be part of a cohesive strategy.
And so as we've done these things - and Lloyd Austin has done an extraordinary job bringing together more than 50 countries in support of Ukraine's defense, but also working through each of these decisions. And, again, every step along the way is necessary. We've done more, we've adjusted, we've adapted, and I'm convinced we'll continue to do that.
KELLY: I want to ask about Americans detained in Russia, including Evan Gershkovich of The Wall Street Journal, who was sentenced this morning to 16 years in prison, and also Vladimir Kara-Murza, who was awarded the Pulitzer Prize this year for his columns for the Washington Post. How do we bring them home?
BLINKEN: We're working it quite literally every day, looking to see what we can do to get them home. We've had a rather extraordinary track record over the last 3 1/2 years of doing just that - bringing some 30 Americans home from different places around the world where they were being unjustly detained. All I can tell you is this - we're working it. We're working it as we speak, and we're not going to stop until we get Evan home, get Paul Whelan home, till we get others home.
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DETROW: That's NPR's Mary Louise Kelly with Secretary of State Antony Blinken today at the Aspen Security Forum. You can find a link to their conversation in full - which also covered China, Iran and more - at our website, npr.org.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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